Friday, February 23, 2018

FLU


Hi folks,

Sorry I’ve been absent the past couple of weeks, but I’ve had the flu and then had a relapse. I don’t know if I was near death but it sure felt like it. I seem to have pulled through and that was totally due to my beautiful wife Mary who was the best nurse I’ve ever had.
It all began with a surprise birthday party Mary sprung on me two days before my actual birthday on February 11 at a local Mexican restaurant we like. Somehow she kept the whole thing secret from me and I was knocked out when we walked in and there were dozens of my friends and relatives. I’ve never had a surprise party before, and at age 75 was running out of opportunities. She really created a magical time for me, one I’ll never forget.


But, literally the moment we went back home, the misery began. Almost the instant we walked in the door we were both knocked to our knees. There was no doubt what we had. It hit so hard, I had to cancel our online class and as it was only our second week that took some doing. It ended up I had to cancel a second week and I’ve never had to do that.

We went to the doctor and were quickly diagnosed and put on Tamiflu It worked for Mary—although she went back to work a couple of days too early, but that’s Mary. I just got worse and worse. It was all I could do to get out of bed a few times a day to go to the bathroom and that trip was just debilitating. We took me back to the doctor and he put me on a bunch of other medicines and COPD measures. I truly thought I was going to die. Truth be told, I wanted to die. If this was going to be the way the rest of my life would be, I didn’t want anything to do with it. I couldn’t breathe—it felt like I was continually suffocating; I couldn’t sleep—it was just a constant barrage of coughing,coughing, coughing all night long. The worse was I couldn’t think. A couple of times I went to my computer and tried to focus on a student’s work and just couldn’t make myself read it intelligently. 

But, I’ve recovered. Should be able to return to class on Monday. 

A couple of things took place while I was will that I wasn’t able to report on then. A blogpost I’d previously been asked to contribute was printed and here it is. Hope you enjoy it. And then, I’d recorded a radio podcast with Dr. Paul Reeves out of Detroit. The broadcast comes out shortly and links are below.

Blue skies,
Les


FEBRUARY 14TH, 2018

Using Third Person vs First Person Novel Narratives

By Guest Blogger

Hi folks,
A source of discussion that always comes up at the beginning of my classes is whether the writer should use first- or third-person. The short answer I usually give, is: “Whatever the material calls for.”
Since that doesn’t adequately address the question, I go on to amplify the answer, and that’s what I’ll do here as well.
First, I ask the student who wants to employ first-person why they chose that stance. Almost without exception, they’ll state, “Well, it’s just more intimate. Third person is too formal for the character I want to create for the story.”
That’s when I proceed to knock holes in that theory.
Before I do that, here are a few things I’ve observed. More beginning writers than established writers tend to write in first-person. Far more people who’ve been published are aware that third person is considered the “professional” POV and that first-person is often considered the “amateur” POV.
Now, before everybody starts yelling at me that there are tons of excellent books out there written in first-person, let me assure you I’m well aware of that. If I may, I’d like to refer you back to my short answer: “Whatever the material calls for.” There are often times when the material calls for first person. However… not as often as is sometimes realized.
Let me explain.
The chief reason many agents and editors prefer third person and call it the “professional” POV, is that the overwhelming percentage of successful books and bestsellers are written in third person. This isn’t an accident. There are reasons this is the case.
Actually, the overwhelming majority of manuscripts that arrive in a publisher’s or agent’s office are written in first-person. If that’s so (and it is), then why would more third-person efforts become published? Well, because many more manuscripts are submitted by beginners than by pros. By the time one goes from the beginner’s group to the published group, the numbers in the second group have dramatically diminished. That means the second group is going to be predominantly writing in third person. Fewer people by far in that group, but a much higher percentage of publishable manuscripts. Most in third person…
This simply goes back to my observation above that more beginning writers employ first-person than do seasoned pros. Editors and agents have also noted this fact. Overwhelmingly so do beginners prefer to write in first- rather than third-person.
That means that when a gatekeeper encounters a first-person manuscript, it goes without saying that a little red light goes on (from his/her past experiences) that chances are pretty good this mss came from a… less seasoned writer. And, it’s just a fact of life and the business of writing that the newer the writer, the less likely the mss will be of publishable quality.
Does that mean when your first-person opus lands on an editor’s or agent’s desk it is doomed from the start? Of course not. But, a writer should be aware that there’s a bit of a bias already in place against first-person.
If it’s a book that should have been written in first rather than third, and it’s written well and is of publishable quality, no problem. Any good editor or agent will be able to tell within a couple of pages if it’s written well or not, no matter what POV stance the author has elected.
Why do agents and editors feel this way about first-person? This gets to the heart of the matter. The reason many hold first-person in a negative light is that anyone who’s read many manuscripts knows that a great many first-person novels are thinly-disguised autobiographies, usually espousing some recently-learned political or social philosophy, or, if not that, their imitation of some current (or just-over) line of bestsellers. At present, this includes vampire or zombie opuses, or invincible characters who look suspiciously like Jack Reacher but have different names.
Another reason many choose a first-person narrator is that it seems easier to newer writers. Many (many!) first novels are written with characters saying and thinking things the writer him- or herself thinks in their own minds. Novels that are fiction in name only; primarily many are just vehicles to assign the writer’s own thoughts to in a loosely-degenerative plot.
Those are all secondary reasons why some writers choose first-person. Overwhelmingly, however, the biggest single reason lots of writers choose first is that they feel it’s a more intimate POV. It seems to make sense. After all, if one is writing “I” from their character’s POV, one can’t get much closer to the character, can they?
You saw this coming, didn’t you!
Of course there’s a way to achieve the same intimacy with third person as there is with first. And, it’s easy.
Simply by employing a close third person, not a formal third. A narrative that uses a close third achieves exactly the same intimacy with the reader as a first person does. The good news is that by using a close third person you get all the positives and none of the negatives of first person.
The bad news is… well, there isn’t any bad news. It’s a win-win situation.
And, how does one achieve this magical close third that feels like first person with none of the baggage of first? 
Again, it’s easy. You simply substitute personal pronouns for the character’s name. That’s it. Sounds too good to be true, doesn’t it?
Let’s take a look. Examples are the best way to prove a point.
I’ll give you a section of narrative in which a formal third is used. Then, I’ll give the same passage in first person. And, finally, I’ll follow that with the same narrative, only this time with personal pronouns in a close third person. I feel confident that as soon as you read them you’ll see and feel the difference.
***
From my short story, “My Idea of a Nice Thing” first published in Breeze and included in my short story collection, “Monday’s Meal.” (The two people are at an A.A. meeting and it’s about a third through the story.)
First, the passage in a formal third person:
            “My idea of a nice thing,” he said, “would be a world where you could get drunk and it wouldn’t harm you, physically, anyway.”
            Raye turned and offered her hand. “My name is Raye.”
            “Hi, Raye. Emory. Like the board.”
            Raye didn’t quite get it and first and then she did and smiled.
            “I liked what you said that time, about sorting yourself out.”
            Again, Raye didn’t get it at first, and then she realized he must have been at the meeting she’d first gotten up and spoken at.
            “Well, yeah,” Raye said, “It’s kind of like that, but boy did I get in trouble saying that!”
            “From Jim, right?” ‘You shouldn’t talk about the joys of drink at a meeting or a place where that’s all the people think about?’ That Jim?” He grinned, and Raye saw he had great teeth, even and white, and what was nice was the way he smiled. Like he was unaware of how great his teeth really were, that he was smiling just because he was happy or had thought of something funny. “There’s been talk of replacing ol’ Jim. He gets his meetings mixed up, thinks this is Parents Without Partners.”
            There must have been something in Raye’s face that made him realize he’d said the wrong thing.
            “Look, I’m sorry. Let’s get out of here,” he said. “Go get a drink.”
            They use the same pickup lines here that they do in bars, Raye thought.
            “I don’t mean a drink with liquor in it,” he said. “I mean a Coke or something, but in a bar. This place feels like a hospital. It’s depressing.”
            “This is a hospital… Emory,” Raye added his name haltingly, knowing that once she’d said it she was going to leave with him.
That’s a formal third. Now, read the same passage as first person.
            “My idea of a nice thing,” he said, “would be a world where you could get drunk and it wouldn’t harm you, physically, anyway.”
            “Raye,” I said, turning and offering my hand. “My name is Raye.”
            “Hi, Raye. Emory. Like the board.”
            I didn’t quite get it at first and then I did and smiled.
            “I liked what you said that time, about sorting yourself out.”
            Again, I didn’t get it at first, and then I realized he must have been at the meeting I’d first gotten up and spoken at.
            “Well, yeah,” I said, “It’s kind of like that, but boy did I get in trouble saying that!”
            “From Jim, right?” ‘You shouldn’t talk about the joys of drink at a meeting or a place where that’s all the people think about?’ That Jim?” He grinned, and I saw he had great teeth, even and white, and what was nice was the way he smiled. Like he was unaware of how great his teeth really were, that he was smiling just because he was happy or had thought of something funny. “There’s been talk of replacing ol’ Jim. He gets his meetings mixed up, thinks this is Parents Without Partners.”
            There must have been something in my face that made him realize he’d said the wrong thing.
            “Look, I’m sorry. Let’s get out of here,” he said. “Go get a drink.”
            They use the same pickup lines here that they do in bars, I thought.
            “I don’t mean a drink with liquor in it,” he said. “I mean a Coke or something, but in a bar. This place feels like a hospital. It’s depressing.”
            “This is a hospital… Emory,” I added his name haltingly, knowing that once I’d said it I was going to leave with him.
And, finally, the same passage as a close third. See if you don’t agree it feels exactly like first person.
            “My idea of a nice thing,” he said, “would be a world where you could get drunk and it wouldn’t harm you, physically, anyway.”
            “Raye,” she said, turning and offering her hand. “My name is Raye.”
            “Hi, Raye. Emory. Like the board.”
            She didn’t quite get it and first and then she did and smiled.
            “I liked what you said that time, about sorting yourself out.”
            Again, she didn’t get it at first, and then she realized he must have been at the meeting she’d first gotten up and spoken at.
            “Well, yeah,” she said, “It’s kind of like that, but boy did I get in trouble saying that!”
            “From Jim, right?” ‘You shouldn’t talk about the joys of drink at a meeting or a place where that’s all the people think about?’ That Jim?” He grinned, and she saw he had great teeth, even and white, and what was nice was the way he smiled. Like he was unaware of how great his teeth really were, that he was smiling just because he was happy or had thought of something funny. “There’s been talk of replacing ol’ Jim. He gets his meetings mixed up, thinks this is Parents Without Partners.”
            There must have been something in her face that made him realize he’d said the wrong thing.
            “Look, I’m sorry. Let’s get out of here,” he said. “Go get a drink.”
            They use the same pickup lines here that they do in bars, she thought.
            “I don’t mean a drink with liquor in it,” he said. “I mean a Coke or something, but in a bar. This place feels like a hospital. It’s depressing.”
            “This is a hospital… Emory,” she added his name haltingly, knowing that once she’d said it she was going to leave with him.
***
See how by simply replacing the POV character’s name with personal pronouns instantly transforms it into a read that feels exactly like first person. The same level of intimacy? Kinda neat, isn’t it!
How do you know when the “material calls for first or third person?”
There’s a handy-dandy litmus test. If you can substitute personal pronouns for all the “I’s” in the narrative and it doesn’t affect the story… then it should be in third. If it does affect the story and in a negative way, then it should be in first. Most of the time I think you’ll find that it works better in third person. A close third person.
Personally, I often write in first person. Mostly for short stories. For novels, occasionally I’ll use first person, but mostly I opt for third. A close third.
Try it yourself. Take a passage written in a formal third (where the POV character’s name is used often) and rewrite it, taking out all the instances where the name is used and substitute personal pronouns for the POV character’s name. (This is once the character’s name is on the page and the reader knows who the “he” or “she” is.) Then, recast it in first person and compare the close third version with the first person version and see if you don’t agree they feel pretty much the same.
Or, take a previously-written passage in first person and substitute personal pronouns for the I’s. If you don’t feel any or very much difference, guess what? It might be a better POV to use.
Hope this helps!
Blue skies,
Les
*  *  *  *  *  *

ABOUT LES

Les EdgertonLes Edgerton is an ex-con, matriculating at Pendleton Reformatory in the sixties for burglary. He was an outlaw for many years and was involved in shootouts, knifings, robberies, high-speed car chases, drugs, was a pimp, worked for an escort service, starred in porn movies, was a gambler, served four years in the Navy, and had other misadventures. He’s since taken a vow of poverty (became a writer) with 18 books in print, including Finding Your Voice and HOOKED.
Three of his novels have been sold to German publisher, Pulpmaster for the German language rights. His memoir, Adrenaline Junkie is currently being marketedWork of his has been nominated for or won: the Pushcart Prize, O. Henry Award, Edgar Allan Poe Award (short story category), Derringer Award, PEN/Faulkner Award, Jesse Jones Book Award, Spinetingler Magazine Award for Best Novel (Legends category), and the Violet Crown Book Award, among others.
Les holds a B.A. from I.U. and the MFA in Writing from Vermont College. He was the writer-in-residence for three years at the University of Toledo, for one year at Trine University, and taught writing classes for UCLA, St. Francis University, Phoenix College, Writer’s Digest,  Vermont College, the New York Writer’s Workshop and other places. He currently teaches a private novel-writing class online.
Loading...

19 COMMENTS TO USING THIRD PERSON VS FIRST PERSON NOVEL NARRATIVES

·         http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/122553b9131a87d0f1bde10f438d568b?s=55&d=blank&r=gTerry Odell
Love close (I call it deep) pov. I did have one character who demanded first, but otherwise, I’m Deep 3rd all the way. Doesn’t mean you can’t have more than one POV character in the book, but I prefer reading 3rd. (And don’t get me started on present tense… ugh.)
o    http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/7b2ae61d0b2978452004ef73a644d9e4?s=55&d=blank&r=gJenny Hansen
I prefer reading third person all the way. It’s got to be a super-likeable funny main character to keep me engaged in first person. And I find present tense so distracting. I have a really hard time reading it, although I have seen it used well in some short stories.
·         http://0.gravatar.com/avatar/f19bd8a4ab255d5e56d4c040ce7129c0?s=55&d=blank&r=gLaura Drake
Thank you for this clear, well thought out defense of third person, Les. Had a hard time getting past the ‘less than’ of 1st, but I get what you’re saying.
One more reason to use third (deep third) – I’m writing a 3 book series. The voice that came to me in the first story was first person, so I wrote it that way. The second story should be third – but my editor told me I’d have to stick with 1st the whole 3 books.
Or, I could rewrite the first in third.
Um, no thanks.
·         http://2.gravatar.com/avatar/2bdf33f5da88443027b556a5bc638e2c?s=55&d=blank&r=gMary Bailey
Dear Les,
I read your article with great interest. You are very good at what you do! I am writing a novel in omniscient 3rd POV. Is that the same as close third person?
Mary
·         http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/7524df7ede5bc4d23b26aef55195cc67?s=55&d=blank&r=gMaggie Smith
I have until tomorrow to submit 50 pages for a workshop in April and I’ve been writing in third person for the first time (my debut novel is in 1st- yup, just like you said above-first time author and all that). Readers have been saying the new story seems too distant. Went through and changed those “names” to the personal pronouns and voila! all the difference. Thanks, Les. Couldn’t have come at a better time. I know there’s a bit more to it (like observations that this character would make in a particular scene that only she would be attuned to to make it seem more “close”) but your quick fix gets me most of the way there,
·         http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/df9790ad9aca627905624a98948d1654?s=55&d=blank&r=gJerry Tabbott
Though I have to consider myself a beginner, third person is my preference – partly because most of what I personally read is in third, but mostly because I like stories with multiple plot threads. Sharing other character’s POVs to advance their threads. I’m sure you’ll receive much push-back on first person being a tendency for beginners. Also, I’m not so sure the third-person bias you mention is still so true, given the explosion of first person series we are witnessing. Publishers, I’m sure, are still looking for what is popular.
·         http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/df9790ad9aca627905624a98948d1654?s=55&d=blank&r=gJerry Tabbott
I sincerely wish I could edit my posts here to clean up errors. Oh well.
·         http://0.gravatar.com/avatar/ffb91946e91f0d289cf8470e45770d1e?s=55&d=blank&r=gmesmer7
I use third person where I need multiple POV characters. First person if I only need one POV character
·         http://2.gravatar.com/avatar/b8c66d84bed5811d95745d92d96e02a2?s=55&d=blank&r=gGabriella L. Garlock
Hi Les! (I just started reading HOOKED–you can’t ignore that many recommendations, but first time I’ve seen you blog). THANKS for addressing the subject. First as a reader I’m feeling vindicated because I really can’t stand READING books in the first-person. Never quite sure why. Maybe ’cause the MC can’t say anything positive about herself without being stuck up, or point out her own flaws without sounding falsely self-deprecatory–heck, the minute they start to talk about themselves at all, it’s ruined for me.
So. I think I write a close 3rd in the heart of scenes–with dialogues, interactions. But surely there’s more to it than replacing pronouns? I pick a POV and mostly stick with it for the scene, using italics for their thoughts if needed. I spend a little more time getting in their heads. I’m not Hemingway.
Having said that, Mary had a good question. My “narrator” is at other times more of an omniscient one; I have a definite voice (I’m told, hoping that’s a good thing). If I juxtapose two seemingly unrelated sentences for effect, giving the reader a potential “ah-ha” moment, isn’t that the work of an omnisicent narrator? Or dropping bits of back-story, world-building–there isn’t always a character to attribute those thoughts to.
I really don’t know if I’m conflating omniscient and close 3rds in a way that could be disastrous. It feels natural but the POV-police could give me a ticket if they caught me.
·         http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/46e957247f0b4a3a2069a695a4cf82f8?s=55&d=blank&r=gdeborahbrasket
Very interesting. I hadn’t know there was a bias against first person. As it is, I write almost always in deep 3rd. Where I struggle with using only pronouns for the pov character is when there are conversations between two males or two females. Sometimes I find I have to use the POV character’s name instead of the pronoun for clarity. In your example, if Raye had been male, how would you have handled it? Would you simply have used Emory’s name instead of he in every instance, and said “the man” for the first “he’ when Ray doesn’t know his name? It sounds a bit stilted that way, especially in the long paragraph.
·         http://0.gravatar.com/avatar/3c3c27312e163a05fd4672657355c5f8?s=55&d=blank&r=gLibby Sommer
very interesting article. thanks so much for the info Les. shame you have the same typo repeated three times in the examples  style='word-break:break-word;font-variant-ligatures: normal;font-variant-caps: normal; orphans: 2;text-align:start;widows: 2;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-spacing:0px' alt="🙂" draggable=false class=emoji v:shapes="_x0000_i1025">
·         http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/4bf05db2f69037f9a807e952449e55b9?s=55&d=blank&r=glesedgerton
Sorry I can’t reply right now but came down with a severe case of the flu two days ago–as soon as I’m up to it I’ll address the issues–thanks for your patience! Blue skies, Les
o    http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/7b2ae61d0b2978452004ef73a644d9e4?s=55&d=blank&r=gJenny Hansen
This flu is so dreadful! I’m sorry you have it, Les. I had it and it kept me down for five days solid, even with Tamiflu. Feel better soon!!!
·         http://2.gravatar.com/avatar/5d04af77856d3c6d618ffc8840e29e9e?s=55&d=blank&r=gJim Crocker
No flu for me, Butch. Sorry you got it. Of course, I rarely leave the house. I’m intrigued with writing in present tense. In fact, I rewrote a piece that was past tense. What do you think about that? At first I thought the change would be difficult, but after a short time, I fell right into it.
Cheers! And Happy B-Day, again!
Jim in Mt
·         http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/a0d448d7224f3bc904527724e0dc9cad?s=55&d=blank&r=gChris L. Owens
I’d never heard this explained in quite this way before. Thanks!
·         http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/19952e21464f69f4661653048e710b30?s=55&d=blank&r=gFae Rowen
When I use deep POV I can get more emotion into my writing because I’m in my character’s head. For me, it’s much more than just a change of pronouns; it’s sharing the inner thoughts and fears of the character with my readers. Although none of my five books are written in first person, young adult books are generally written (and bought by editors) in first person.
·         http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/4b15bf205e8c6748b166833e13f8801f?s=55&d=blank&r=gdholcomb1
liked the way you explained it..it made a lot of sense
denise
·         http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/74ea8ff6b34ae457648cee8f4857f10b?s=55&d=blank&r=gQuine Atal
Is there a general rule for work that is intentionally autobiographical?
[…] Every story has large, overarching elements writers have to deal with. Daeus Lamb gives us theme made easy, and Les Edgerton unpacks using 3rd person vs. 1st person novel narratives. […]

 DR. PAUL'S FAMILY TALK

Hi Les - Your interview will be played on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, (February 26, 27, and 28, 2018), on "Dr. Paul's Family Talk" at the following times (all times are EST Detroit times):

MONDAY
11:00 a.m. (LIVE Show)
3:00 P.M.
8:00 p.m.

TUESDAY
2:00 a.m.
5:00 a.m.
11:00 a.m.
3:00 p.m.
8:00 p.m

WEDNESDAY
2"00 a.m.
5:00 a.m.
10:00 a.m.

You can listen by going to:

http://www.impactradiousa.com
(click on LISTEN LIVE)

Or go straight to the live stream at:

http://streaming.radio.co/sb17f7f4fa/listen

Please let your fans know! Thank you!

Also, I will send you the podcast link of your interview to you within a few days after it has aired on my show. Thank you!