Hi folks,
Sorry I’ve been absent the past couple of
weeks, but I’ve had the flu and then had a relapse. I don’t know if I was near
death but it sure felt like it. I seem to have pulled through and that was totally
due to my beautiful wife Mary who was the best nurse I’ve ever had.
It all began with a
surprise birthday party Mary sprung on me two days before my actual birthday on
February 11 at a local Mexican restaurant we like. Somehow she kept the whole
thing secret from me and I was knocked out when we walked in and there were
dozens of my friends and relatives. I’ve never had a surprise party before, and
at age 75 was running out of opportunities. She really created a magical time
for me, one I’ll never forget.
But, literally the moment
we went back home, the misery began. Almost the instant we walked in the door
we were both knocked to our knees. There was no doubt what we had. It hit so
hard, I had to cancel our online class and as it was only our second week that
took some doing. It ended up I had to cancel a second week and I’ve never had
to do that.
We went to the doctor and
were quickly diagnosed and put on Tamiflu It worked for Mary—although she went
back to work a couple of days too early, but that’s Mary. I just got worse and
worse. It was all I could do to get out of bed a few times a day to go to the
bathroom and that trip was just debilitating. We took me back to the doctor and
he put me on a bunch of other medicines and COPD measures. I truly thought I
was going to die. Truth be told, I wanted
to die. If this was going to be the way the rest of my life would be, I didn’t
want anything to do with it. I couldn’t breathe—it felt like I was continually
suffocating; I couldn’t sleep—it was just a constant barrage of
coughing,coughing, coughing all night long. The worse was I couldn’t think. A
couple of times I went to my computer and tried to focus on a student’s work
and just couldn’t make myself read it intelligently.
But, I’ve recovered. Should
be able to return to class on Monday.
A couple of things took
place while I was will that I wasn’t able to report on then. A blogpost I’d
previously been asked to contribute was printed and here it is. Hope you enjoy
it. And then, I’d recorded a radio podcast with Dr. Paul Reeves out of Detroit.
The broadcast comes out shortly and links are below.
Blue skies,
Les
FEBRUARY 14TH, 2018
Using Third Person vs First Person Novel Narratives
By Guest
Blogger
Hi folks,
A source of discussion that always comes up at the beginning of my
classes is whether the writer should use first- or third-person. The short
answer I usually give, is: “Whatever the material calls for.”
Since that doesn’t adequately address the question, I go on to
amplify the answer, and that’s what I’ll do here as well.
First, I ask the student who wants to employ first-person why they
chose that stance. Almost without exception, they’ll state, “Well, it’s just
more intimate. Third person is too formal for the character I want to create
for the story.”
That’s when I proceed to knock holes in that theory.
Before I do that, here are a few things I’ve observed. More
beginning writers than established writers tend to write in first-person. Far
more people who’ve been published are aware that third person is considered the
“professional” POV and that first-person is often considered the “amateur” POV.
Now, before everybody starts yelling at me that there are tons of
excellent books out there written in first-person, let me assure you I’m well
aware of that. If I may, I’d like to refer you back to my short answer:
“Whatever the material calls for.” There are often times when the material
calls for first person. However… not as often as is sometimes realized.
Let me explain.
The chief reason many agents and editors prefer third person and
call it the “professional” POV, is that the overwhelming percentage of
successful books and bestsellers are written in third person. This isn’t an
accident. There are reasons this is the case.
Actually, the overwhelming majority of manuscripts that arrive in
a publisher’s or agent’s office are written in first-person. If that’s so (and
it is), then why would more third-person efforts become published? Well,
because many more manuscripts are submitted by beginners than by pros. By the
time one goes from the beginner’s group to the published group, the numbers in
the second group have dramatically diminished. That means the second group is
going to be predominantly writing in third person. Fewer people by far in that
group, but a much higher percentage of publishable manuscripts. Most in third
person…
This simply goes back to my observation above that more beginning
writers employ first-person than do seasoned pros. Editors and agents have also
noted this fact. Overwhelmingly so do beginners prefer to write in first-
rather than third-person.
That means that when a gatekeeper encounters a first-person manuscript,
it goes without saying that a little red light goes on (from his/her past
experiences) that chances are pretty good this mss came from a… less seasoned
writer. And, it’s just a fact of life and the business of writing that the
newer the writer, the less likely the mss will be of publishable quality.
Does that mean when your first-person opus lands on an editor’s or
agent’s desk it is doomed from the start? Of
course not. But, a writer should be aware that there’s a bit of a bias already
in place against first-person.
If it’s a book that should have been written in first rather than
third, and it’s written well and is of publishable quality, no problem. Any
good editor or agent will be able to tell within a couple of pages if it’s
written well or not, no matter what POV stance the author has elected.
Why do agents and editors feel this way about first-person? This
gets to the heart of the matter. The reason many hold first-person in a
negative light is that anyone who’s read many manuscripts knows that a great
many first-person novels are thinly-disguised autobiographies, usually
espousing some recently-learned political or social philosophy, or, if not
that, their imitation of some current (or just-over) line of bestsellers. At
present, this includes vampire or zombie opuses, or invincible characters who
look suspiciously like Jack Reacher but have different names.
Another reason many choose a first-person narrator is that it
seems easier to
newer writers. Many (many!) first novels are written with characters saying and
thinking things the writer him- or herself thinks in their own minds. Novels
that are fiction in name only; primarily many are just vehicles to assign the
writer’s own thoughts to in a loosely-degenerative plot.
Those are all secondary reasons why some writers choose
first-person. Overwhelmingly, however, the biggest single reason lots of
writers choose first is that they feel it’s a more intimate POV. It
seems to make sense. After all, if one is writing “I” from their character’s
POV, one can’t get much closer to the character, can they?
You saw this coming, didn’t you!
Of course there’s a way to achieve the same intimacy with third
person as there is with first. And, it’s easy.
Simply by employing a close third
person, not a formal third. A narrative that uses a
close third achieves exactly the same intimacy with the reader as a first
person does. The good news is that by using a close third person you get all
the positives and none of the negatives of first person.
The bad news is… well, there isn’t any bad news. It’s a win-win
situation.
And, how does one achieve this magical close third that feels
like first person with none of the baggage of first?
Again, it’s easy. You simply substitute personal pronouns for
the character’s name. That’s it. Sounds too good to be true, doesn’t it?
Let’s take a look. Examples are the best way to prove a point.
I’ll give you a section of narrative in which a formal third is
used. Then, I’ll give the same passage in first person. And, finally, I’ll
follow that with the same narrative, only this time with personal pronouns in a
close third person. I feel confident that as soon as you read them you’ll see
and feel the difference.
***
From my short story, “My Idea of a Nice Thing” first published
in Breeze and
included in my short story collection, “Monday’s Meal.” (The two people are at
an A.A. meeting and it’s about a third through the story.)
First, the passage in a formal third person:
“My idea of a nice thing,” he said, “would be a world where you could get drunk
and it wouldn’t harm you, physically, anyway.”
Raye turned and offered her hand. “My name is Raye.”
“Hi, Raye. Emory. Like the board.”
Raye didn’t quite get it and first and then she did and smiled.
“I liked what you said that time, about sorting yourself out.”
Again, Raye didn’t get it at first, and then she realized he must have been at
the meeting she’d first gotten up and spoken at.
“Well, yeah,” Raye said, “It’s kind of like that, but boy did I get in trouble
saying that!”
“From Jim, right?” ‘You shouldn’t talk about the joys of drink at a meeting or
a place where that’s all the people think about?’ That Jim?” He grinned, and
Raye saw he had great teeth, even and white, and what was nice was the way he
smiled. Like he was unaware of how great his teeth really were, that he was
smiling just because he was happy or had thought of something funny. “There’s
been talk of replacing ol’ Jim. He gets his meetings mixed up, thinks this is
Parents Without Partners.”
There must have been something in Raye’s face that made him realize he’d said
the wrong thing.
“Look, I’m sorry. Let’s get out of here,” he said. “Go get a drink.”
They use the same pickup lines here that they do in bars, Raye thought.
“I don’t mean a drink with liquor in it,” he said. “I mean a Coke or something,
but in a bar. This place feels like a hospital. It’s depressing.”
“This is a
hospital… Emory,” Raye added his name haltingly, knowing that once she’d said
it she was going to leave with him.
That’s
a formal third. Now, read the same passage as first person.
“My idea of a nice thing,” he said, “would be a world where you could get drunk
and it wouldn’t harm you, physically, anyway.”
“Raye,” I said, turning and offering my hand. “My name is Raye.”
“Hi, Raye. Emory. Like the board.”
I didn’t quite get it at first and then I did and smiled.
“I liked what you said that time, about sorting yourself out.”
Again, I didn’t get it at first, and then I realized he must have been at the
meeting I’d first gotten up and spoken at.
“Well, yeah,” I said, “It’s kind of like that, but boy did I get in trouble
saying that!”
“From Jim, right?” ‘You shouldn’t talk about the joys of drink at a meeting or
a place where that’s all the people think about?’ That Jim?” He grinned, and I
saw he had great teeth, even and white, and what was nice was the way he
smiled. Like he was unaware of how great his teeth really were, that he was
smiling just because he was happy or had thought of something funny. “There’s
been talk of replacing ol’ Jim. He gets his meetings mixed up, thinks this is
Parents Without Partners.”
There must have been something in my face that made him realize he’d said the
wrong thing.
“Look, I’m sorry. Let’s get out of here,” he said. “Go get a drink.”
They use the same pickup lines here that they do in bars, I thought.
“I don’t mean a drink with liquor in it,” he said. “I mean a Coke or something,
but in a bar. This place feels like a hospital. It’s depressing.”
“This is a
hospital… Emory,” I added his name haltingly, knowing that once I’d said it I
was going to leave with him.
And,
finally, the same passage as a close third. See if you don’t agree it feels
exactly like first person.
“My idea of a nice thing,” he said, “would be a world where you could get drunk
and it wouldn’t harm you, physically, anyway.”
“Raye,” she said, turning and offering her hand. “My name is Raye.”
“Hi, Raye. Emory. Like the board.”
She didn’t quite get it and first and then she did and smiled.
“I liked what you said that time, about sorting yourself out.”
Again, she didn’t get it at first, and then she realized he must have been at
the meeting she’d first gotten up and spoken at.
“Well, yeah,” she said, “It’s kind of like that, but boy did I get in trouble
saying that!”
“From Jim, right?” ‘You shouldn’t talk about the joys of drink at a meeting or
a place where that’s all the people think about?’ That Jim?” He grinned, and
she saw he had great teeth, even and white, and what was nice was the way he
smiled. Like he was unaware of how great his teeth really were, that he was
smiling just because he was happy or had thought of something funny. “There’s
been talk of replacing ol’ Jim. He gets his meetings mixed up, thinks this is
Parents Without Partners.”
There must have been something in her face that made him realize he’d said the
wrong thing.
“Look, I’m sorry. Let’s get out of here,” he said. “Go get a drink.”
They use the same pickup lines here that they do in bars, she thought.
“I don’t mean a drink with liquor in it,” he said. “I mean a Coke or something,
but in a bar. This place feels like a hospital. It’s depressing.”
“This is a
hospital… Emory,” she added his name haltingly, knowing that once she’d said it
she was going to leave with him.
***
See how by simply replacing the POV character’s name with personal
pronouns instantly transforms it into a read that feels exactly like first
person. The same level of intimacy? Kinda neat, isn’t it!
How do you know when the “material calls for first or third
person?”
There’s a handy-dandy litmus test. If you can substitute personal
pronouns for all the “I’s” in the narrative and it doesn’t affect the story…
then it should be in third. If it does affect the story and in a negative way,
then it should be in first. Most of the time I think you’ll find that it works
better in third person. A close third
person.
Personally, I often write in first person. Mostly for short
stories. For novels, occasionally I’ll use first person, but mostly I opt for
third. A close third.
Try it yourself. Take a passage written in a formal third (where
the POV character’s name is used often) and rewrite it, taking out all the
instances where the name is used and substitute personal pronouns for the POV
character’s name. (This is once the character’s name is on the page and the
reader knows who the “he” or “she” is.) Then, recast it in first person and
compare the close third version with the first person version and see if you
don’t agree they feel pretty much the same.
Or, take a previously-written passage in first person and
substitute personal pronouns for the I’s. If you don’t feel any or very much
difference, guess what? It might be a better POV to use.
Hope this helps!
Blue skies,
Les
Les
* * *
* * *
ABOUT
LES
Les
Edgerton is an ex-con, matriculating at Pendleton Reformatory in the sixties
for burglary. He was an outlaw for many years and was involved in shootouts,
knifings, robberies, high-speed car chases, drugs, was a pimp, worked for an
escort service, starred in porn movies, was a gambler, served four years in the
Navy, and had other misadventures. He’s since taken a vow of poverty (became a
writer) with 18 books in print, including Finding Your Voice and HOOKED.
Three of his novels have been sold to German publisher, Pulpmaster
for the German language rights. His memoir, Adrenaline Junkie is currently being
marketed. Work
of his has been nominated for or won: the Pushcart Prize, O. Henry Award, Edgar
Allan Poe Award (short story category), Derringer Award, PEN/Faulkner Award,
Jesse Jones Book Award, Spinetingler Magazine Award for Best Novel (Legends
category), and the Violet Crown Book Award, among others.
Les holds a B.A. from I.U. and the MFA in Writing from Vermont
College. He was the writer-in-residence for three years at the University of
Toledo, for one year at Trine University, and taught writing classes for UCLA,
St. Francis University, Phoenix College, Writer’s Digest, Vermont
College, the New York Writer’s Workshop and other places. He currently teaches
a private novel-writing class online.
He can be found at www.lesedgertononwriting.blogspot.com/.
Loading...
February
14th, 2018 | Tags: bestselling
novels, Les Edgerton, Point of view, Writers in the
Storm, writing |
Category: Blogging Guests, Craft
19 COMMENTS TO USING THIRD PERSON VS FIRST PERSON NOVEL
NARRATIVES
·
Love
close (I call it deep) pov. I did have one character who demanded first, but
otherwise, I’m Deep 3rd all the way. Doesn’t mean you can’t have more than one
POV character in the book, but I prefer reading 3rd. (And don’t get me started
on present tense… ugh.)
o 
I prefer reading third person all the way. It’s got to be a
super-likeable funny main character to keep me engaged in first person. And I
find present tense so distracting. I have a really hard time reading it,
although I have seen it used well in some short stories.
·
Thank
you for this clear, well thought out defense of third person, Les. Had a hard
time getting past the ‘less than’ of 1st, but I get what you’re saying.
One
more reason to use third (deep third) – I’m writing a 3 book series. The voice
that came to me in the first story was first person, so I wrote it that way.
The second story should be third – but my editor told me I’d have to stick with
1st the whole 3 books.
Or, I
could rewrite the first in third.
Um, no
thanks.
·
Dear
Les,
I read
your article with great interest. You are very good at what you do! I am
writing a novel in omniscient 3rd POV. Is that the same as close third person?
Mary
·
I have
until tomorrow to submit 50 pages for a workshop in April and I’ve been writing
in third person for the first time (my debut novel is in 1st- yup, just like
you said above-first time author and all that). Readers have been saying the
new story seems too distant. Went through and changed those “names” to the
personal pronouns and voila! all the difference. Thanks, Les. Couldn’t have
come at a better time. I know there’s a bit more to it (like observations that
this character would make in a particular scene that only she would be attuned
to to make it seem more “close”) but your quick fix gets me most of the way
there,
·
Though
I have to consider myself a beginner, third person is my preference – partly
because most of what I personally read is in third, but mostly because I like
stories with multiple plot threads. Sharing other character’s POVs to advance
their threads. I’m sure you’ll receive much push-back on first person being a
tendency for beginners. Also, I’m not so sure the third-person bias you mention
is still so true, given the explosion of first person series we are witnessing.
Publishers, I’m sure, are still looking for what is popular.
·
I
sincerely wish I could edit my posts here to clean up errors. Oh well.
·
I use
third person where I need multiple POV characters. First person if I only need
one POV character
·
Hi Les!
(I just started reading HOOKED–you can’t ignore that many recommendations, but
first time I’ve seen you blog). THANKS for addressing the subject. First as a
reader I’m feeling vindicated because I really can’t stand READING books in the
first-person. Never quite sure why. Maybe ’cause the MC can’t say anything
positive about herself without being stuck up, or point out her own flaws
without sounding falsely self-deprecatory–heck, the minute they start to talk
about themselves at all, it’s ruined for me.
So. I
think I write a close 3rd in the heart of scenes–with dialogues, interactions.
But surely there’s more to it than replacing pronouns? I pick a POV and mostly
stick with it for the scene, using italics for their thoughts if needed. I
spend a little more time getting in their heads. I’m not Hemingway.
Having
said that, Mary had a good question. My “narrator” is at other times more of an
omniscient one; I have a definite voice (I’m told, hoping that’s a good thing).
If I juxtapose two seemingly unrelated sentences for effect, giving the reader
a potential “ah-ha” moment, isn’t that the work of an omnisicent narrator? Or
dropping bits of back-story, world-building–there isn’t always a character to
attribute those thoughts to.
I
really don’t know if I’m conflating omniscient and close 3rds in a way that
could be disastrous. It feels natural but the POV-police could give me a ticket
if they caught me.
·
Very
interesting. I hadn’t know there was a bias against first person. As it is, I
write almost always in deep 3rd. Where I struggle with using only pronouns for
the pov character is when there are conversations between two males or two
females. Sometimes I find I have to use the POV character’s name instead of the
pronoun for clarity. In your example, if Raye had been male, how would you have
handled it? Would you simply have used Emory’s name instead of he in every
instance, and said “the man” for the first “he’ when Ray doesn’t know his name?
It sounds a bit stilted that way, especially in the long paragraph.
·
very
interesting article. thanks so much for the info Les. shame you have the same
typo repeated three times in the examples 
style='word-break:break-word;font-variant-ligatures: normal;font-variant-caps: normal;
orphans: 2;text-align:start;widows: 2;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
word-spacing:0px' alt="🙂" draggable=false class=emoji v:shapes="_x0000_i1025">
style='word-break:break-word;font-variant-ligatures: normal;font-variant-caps: normal;
orphans: 2;text-align:start;widows: 2;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
word-spacing:0px' alt="🙂" draggable=false class=emoji v:shapes="_x0000_i1025">
·
Sorry I
can’t reply right now but came down with a severe case of the flu two days
ago–as soon as I’m up to it I’ll address the issues–thanks for your patience!
Blue skies, Les
o
This flu is so dreadful! I’m sorry you have it, Les. I had it and
it kept me down for five days solid, even with Tamiflu. Feel better soon!!!
·
No flu
for me, Butch. Sorry you got it. Of course, I rarely leave the house. I’m
intrigued with writing in present tense. In fact, I rewrote a piece that was
past tense. What do you think about that? At first I thought the change would
be difficult, but after a short time, I fell right into it.
Cheers!
And Happy B-Day, again!
Jim in Mt
Jim in Mt
·
I’d
never heard this explained in quite this way before. Thanks!
·
When I
use deep POV I can get more emotion into my writing because I’m in my
character’s head. For me, it’s much more than just a change of pronouns; it’s
sharing the inner thoughts and fears of the character with my readers. Although
none of my five books are written in first person, young adult books are
generally written (and bought by editors) in first person.
·
·
Is
there a general rule for work that is intentionally autobiographical?
·
[…]
Every story has large, overarching elements writers have to deal with. Daeus
Lamb gives us theme made easy, and Les Edgerton unpacks using 3rd person vs.
1st person novel narratives. […]
Hi Les - Your interview will be played on
Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, (February 26, 27, and 28, 2018), on "Dr.
Paul's Family Talk" at the following times (all times are EST Detroit
times):
MONDAY
11:00 a.m. (LIVE Show)
3:00 P.M.
8:00 p.m.
TUESDAY
2:00 a.m.
5:00 a.m.
11:00 a.m.
3:00 p.m.
8:00 p.m
WEDNESDAY
2"00 a.m.
5:00 a.m.
10:00 a.m.
You can listen by going to:
http://www.impactradiousa.com
(click on LISTEN LIVE)
Or go straight to the live stream at:
http://streaming.radio.co/sb17f7f4fa/listen
Please let your fans know! Thank you!
Also, I will send you the podcast link of your interview to you within a few days after it has aired on my show. Thank you!
MONDAY
11:00 a.m. (LIVE Show)
3:00 P.M.
8:00 p.m.
TUESDAY
2:00 a.m.
5:00 a.m.
11:00 a.m.
3:00 p.m.
8:00 p.m
WEDNESDAY
2"00 a.m.
5:00 a.m.
10:00 a.m.
You can listen by going to:
http://www.impactradiousa.com
(click on LISTEN LIVE)
Or go straight to the live stream at:
http://streaming.radio.co/sb17f7f4fa/listen
Please let your fans know! Thank you!
Also, I will send you the podcast link of your interview to you within a few days after it has aired on my show. Thank you!
Posts
