Just completed this interview with Will Viharo on his column, Digital Media Ghost. Click here to see it on the site.
Author of the Week: Les Edgerton
Fiction is easier to categorize than fiction
writers, at least much of the time.
Take award-winning, bestselling, universally
lauded “crime writer” Les Edgerton. Designating him as such may be
promotionally correct, but it doesn’t begin to distill the essence of a man
that had led a long, complex, tormented, challenging, and ultimately rewarding
life.
To pigeonhole Les Edgerton merely as a “crime
writer,” even though he writes “crime fiction,” would indeed be a crime, or at
least a misdemeanor, of intellectual laziness.
An author may specialize in writing violent,
hardboiled tales of desperate people doing risky things, but that doesn’t mean
the author is anything like his or her characters. Most of the time the writers
are sharing their own fantasies. The readers themselves take a vicarious walk
on the dark side with no danger to themselves. Kind of like a video game.
Except reading requires a certain kind of mental concentration that is eluding
more and more of us as our multi-media both expands and contracts. I’ve never
played a single video game in my life, but I understand the emancipating
escapism of creative imagination, especially my own.
For the record, though many of my books can be
categorized as some version of “noir,” I’ve never considered myself a crime
writer per se. I write mostly from my own experiences, and since I’m not a
criminal, at least in the legal sense, I don’t really relate to criminals. My
protagonists are often damaged people who read too many crime novels and watch
too many crime movies, and then try to act accordingly. And therein lies the
conflict of the otherwise unconventional narratives.
But don’t call me a “crime writer.” Unless, of
course, you consider my work an affront to society at large. The only rules I
break are literary in nature.
Enough about me. Let’s focus on the subject of
this interview, which is not the interviewee.
Les Edgerton is a legend. Maybe not in his mind,
but in mine and many, many others, whether readers or writers. He comes by this
honor not through any intentional ambitions, but incidentally, just by living
his life, often taking the hard road instead of cruising down Easy Street. Not
that there was often an optional fork in his path, anyway.
Though I’m a “straight,” at least as far as the
law goes, I relate a lot to Les both as a person and as a writer, though our
backgrounds are quite different. Besides artistic sublimation, we are bonded by
a tenacious survival instinct, and a low tolerance for baloney. (In my case, I
eschew both the behavioral and the edible iterations).
Les has plenty to say on these and other
subjects, so I’ll let him take it from here. Hang on tight: it’s going to be a
bumpy, grumpy, but edifying ride…
You’ve sold everything from drugs to life
insurance in your colorful life. How do you sell yourself as an author in such
a crowded, competitive marketplace?
I don’t think I’m a good one to ask this of! I
don’t seem to do that great a job in selling myself. I suspect it’s because social
media is fairly foreign to me and I’ve always felt out of place in it. People
who pat themselves on the back or seek out praise seem a bit… what’s the un-PC
word I’m looking for? Oh, yeah, kind of girlie. Most of it reminds me of “those
kids” in high school, running for class president. Working the room pretty much
like a… what’s the word I’m looking for?... oh, yeah, like a whore. That’s kind
of what social media looks like to me and I’m just uncomfortable in it. And
yet, I put more of myself out there than I can ever feel comfortable with. I
just have a deep-seated belief that real men and women don’t wear their
feelings on their sleeves and that seems to be a main staple of social media.
So, in what will probably be an unpopular answer to your question, I’m probably
not suited very well to social media so I doubt if I’ll ever do well with it
for promotion. Plus, I think it’s maybe a bit overrated—I don’t think it moves
that many books. What moves significant numbers of books is being published by
a Legacy 5 or a top independent, getting reviews in mainstream papers and
mostly by being on the shelves of brick and mortar bookstores. Social media
seems to sell to a very small audience, composed of authors in the same genre
and their relatively few fans. Compared to the effort expended, I don’t see a
commensurate return in sales. I suspect many of us have bought into that advice
that we need a “platform” if we want to sell books. And, crank out more and
more books, regardless of the quality.
Just not interested in getting votes for Prom
King…
You’re been in the military and in prison, so
unlike many of your peers in the noir field, you know real violence up close
and personal. How does this background inform your work as a crime fiction
writer?
As an honest and knowledgeable writer. I see all these writers writing
criminals and it’s obvious most don’t have the faintest clue how the criminal
mind works or how real criminals actually act. It works the same as the
straight’s mind, to be honest. Like a straight, they don’t think in terms of
good and evil or good and bad. Whatevever they do, it’s usually for the same
reasons a straight does things. (I know that the term “straight” today
sometimes means a heterosexual, but I use it the way guys in the joint use it—to
describe a person who obeys the law, i.e., a “lame.”)
The way most bad guys keep getting portrayed is pretty much the way
MSNBC portrays criminals in their inside the joint series. Mainly, they show
two-three kinds of criminals—the psychotic and the weight-lifters. The gangs.
None of those guys are the norm—they’re just the guys they can sensationalize.
Most are the outliers, but they’re presented as the average guy. If you could
watch an average prison scene, you’d probably focus on the guys bench-pressing
Buicks. Those aren’t the bad guys. Half of them are on steroids and half of
them couldn’t or wouldn’t fight their way out of a paper bag. It’s mostly all
for looks and show and doesn’t scare anyone. They’re selling wolf tickets and
the only people who buy those are lames. Or, the gang-bangers. They walk around
like they’re breaking bad all the time and the truth is a lot of them are
jokes. Or, out and out cowards. They only break bad when they outnumber others.
The quiet guy on the corner of the yard, talking with one or two guys is the
true badass in the joint. The weightlifters don’t bother him, the gangsters don’t
bother him. They walk around this guy and ignore him. That’s because he’s the
guy who will take them out in a New York second and they know it. But most
writers don’t even know this guy exists. He doesn’t fit their stereotypical
ideas of what a convict is or what a truly bad ass looks or acts like.
There are so many books now about meth criminals
or guys who are high or drunk and are basically just mesomorphs. Yeah, there
are guys like that—more now than ever before—but there are also a substantial
number of people involved in criminal activities who don’t look anything like
these guys and act nothing like them. A great many criminals never get caught.
Look up crime statistics and it’s an eye-opener. Personally, when I finally got
caught I’d committed well over four hundred burglaries and many other crimes
for which I never got charged. I actually got caught for two crimes. Two. They
charged me with 82 burglaries and they didn’t have a clue about any of them
other than the two they caught me in the act of. Now, any endeavor you get
caught doing two out of over four hundred, you’d kind of have to admit was
successful. The only way I got charged with more than those two was that I was
with other guys who also got caught and they snitched me out, telling about the
jobs they’d been in on with me. The cops got lucky and actually caught me in
two actual crimes out of the more than four hundred I got away with. If cops
didn’t depend on snitches they’d never catch anyone. For crimes against
property that is. For some crimes—like murders and kidnappings—they have a
better rate. Although, more than half of all murders go unsolved, so…
I didn’t quit committing crimes when I got out of
prison—I just quit getting caught. And that was because I acted alone. I also
didn’t drink or do drugs on “the job.”That’s all it takes to be a successful
outlaw. I committed over a thousand new crimes after being released and the
cops didn’t even sniff what I was doing. I remember times when I left my parole
officer’s office and went out and robbed a place. It’s really easy to be a
successful criminal. There are so many outlaws who commit crimes constantly and
never come close to getting caught. But, straights keep on believing this
bullshit that crime doesn’t pay and eventually all criminals get caught. That’s
about as true as saying all gamblers eventually end up losing. Yeah…
The other thing lacking in many writer’s work is
a sense that they have a clue at all about killing or facing death. Everyone
fancies themselves an expert these days and few are. In Hemingway’s day the
writers who had never faced death left that stuff to Papa—most would have been
embarrassed to portray violent death in their pages—Hemingway might have called
them out on it. So they wrote about things like garden parties and had
characters named Gatsby. At which they did fine. When they wrote about things
they actually knew something about and had some actual talent, they looked like
real writers. Today, those kinds of writers are not afraid of being called out
and they pretend to know something about facing death and while a few do, a lot
don’t. They’ve never been in the service, or a criminal, or a cop or anyone who’s
faced dying on an up-close-and-personal level. Sorry, but I can’t suspend my
disbelief for a lot of them. They give away their innocence in so many ways. A
lot of them should be focusing on garden parties more, the life of insurance salesmen,
and sorrowing over the lost babes of their youth…
At some point in your life, in between being a
hair stylist, business headhunter, sports writer, and escort service
specialist, you were actually homeless, and then you earned a MFA in writing. Do
you feel your diverse personal and professional experiences or your formal
education are more crucial to your literary success, or are they complementary?
Is it different for everyone?
I was homeless more than once, Will. Several
times—in New Orleans, in Baltimore, in Orange County. No big deal. Our homeless
are far wealthier than the poor of most countries. I never had to miss many
meals. Too many bleeding hearts out there for that to happen. And, even if
there weren’t, our Dumpsters hold better and more food than most of the
shitholes in the world do for their regular citizens. Except maybe the
Dumpsters in L.A.—that’s one shithole where it looks like the homeless have
completely taken over…
As to your question, formal writing instruction
never gave me an ounce of help in writing. Just a colossal waste of money and
time. And, I went to one of the best schools in the country—Vermont College,
which places in the top five every year in Poets & Writers. I
shudder to think what these Johnny-come-lately programs that have sprung up
everywhere are like. They’re just cash cows for colleges. The only one I see as
being of value any more is Seton Hill. Not even Iowa any more. The vast number
of writers are being taught to be one-trick ponies. They just keep writing the
same tired-ass story over and over. Show me the difference between Jack Reacher
novel #1 and Jack Reacher novel #18. Not ten words worth of difference. And I
read and enjoy Reacher novel, and admire Lee Child who doesn’t pretend to be a
writer but is an author. Big difference.
I just went through a near-death experience and
my entire outlook on life has shifted. I know now what guys like Richard
Brautigan felt like. Like we’ve put our entire lives out there and no one
noticed, except superfically. Well, screw that.
The real reason I think you asked about MFAs and
the like is that you understand that the vast majority of wannabe writers have
(rightfully) little faith in their writing ability and are looking for a magic
bean that will confer the title of writer upon them. This is the kind of thing
they’ve looked for all their lives. Go to school, earn an MBA, make a fortune
on Wall Street or in the corporate world. Get a law degree, go to med school,
get a teaching degree, a degree in journalism, etc., etc. It’s all about
education, about a degree. Biggest load of bullshit ever sold to gullible
youth. And, the only route to success they’re aware of. It’s fool’s gold but
they don’t know it. They don’t realize the adults in their lives have been sold
a crock of shit and all they can do is move it along to the next generation.
Kids, listen to the truly wise among us. Listen
to the genius, Flannery O’Connor, who when asked if MFA programs discouraged
writers, replied, “Not enough of them.” Truer words were never spoken… A
semester studying just one of her stories (preferably without some idiot MFA
advisor whispering in their ear their own moronic interpretation of it) will
learn infinitely more about writing than sitting through a hundred academic
lectures and make-work workshops. Run like the wind from MFA programs if you
ever want a chance to learn to write. Where it will help you is to get
published in journals run by MFA folks, mostly an experience that feels oddly
like incest, probably because it is. It will also get your work read by a
certain kind of literary agent who still puts value in these kinds of worthless
degrees. They’ll help you become an author. Not a writer. But, I suspect the
majority of folks writing today would rather be an author than a writer. At
least, a lot of the work I see reflects that mindset.
Will, to fully answer your question, for me
neither my life experiences nor any formal education were crucial to my
literary ability. To my literary success, my life experiences—particularly
the ones outside the norm---were helpful, but as far as literary ability only
two things really helped that. First, an extraordinary intelligence (an I.Q. of
163), and second, having read far, far more than anyone I know was the biggest
single factor. I firmly believe that you learn to write by reading. And, it’s
what I notice about a lot of today’s writers—they don’t seem to have read much
of quality. I began by reading Balzac and de Maupassant and the Russians when I
was six and seven and eight years old. I see so many writers who say they began
reading the Hardy Boys and cannot believe they’ll ever amount to a whole lot in
letters. Is that elitist? Sure, but to be a good or great writer is the very
definition of elitism. Can you imagine Saul Bellow attending some of today’s
writer’s conventions or even being aware of them? Hemingway might show up but
only because he had a commercial side and figured out people would buy him
drinks. I’m pretty sure Flannery O’Connor wouldn’t even consider something like
that. She valued her brain cells more than that… Too much class and pride to
work the room like a high school kid trying to get enough votes for class
president or prom king.
Reading voraciously and reading a quality list
from the age of five or six is the key to becoming anything more than a
formulaic or hack writer. Being also a genius doesn’t hurt. I get students who
read an average of 5-10 books a year and I know they’re never going to write
anything I’d want to read. Their literary heroes are John Gresham, Stephen King
and the like. It used to be that anyone who read those kinds of authors would
never admit it in public but those days have changed… It says a lot when a “writer”
claims that one of his writing heroes is Stephen King. You can pretty well bet
this isn’t a writer who can tell the difference between an Ian Fleming novel
and The Stranger although he probably would never read the latter.
What are your influences, literary or otherwise?
I’ll list those who’ve written stories I admire
and those I’ve learned something from. I always hate doing this as I can’t
begin to list them all and after the interview comes out I feel badly about
forgetting someone who should be on the list. Please forgive me the omissions.
Here ya go. The Bible. Harry Crews, Camus,
Borges, Steve Hamilton, Joe Lansdale, Anthony Smith, Paul Brazill, Ray Banks,
David Sedaris, Dennis Lehane, Elmore Leonard, Raymond Carver, Ken Bruen,
Christopher Moore, Flannery O’Connor, James Dickey, Faulkner, Nelson Algren,
Charles Bukowski, Elaine Ash, Kurt Vonnegut, Jim Murray, Larry Brown, Helen
FitzGerald, Barry Hannah, Les Edgerton—yeah, myself—I read my own work
often--Celine, Mark Twain, Guillermo O’Joyce, Sherman Alexie, Richard
Brautigan, Callie Khouri, Janet Burroway, Linwood Barclay, David Mamet, Cormac
McCarthy, Anton Chekhov, Saul Bellow, Pete Dexter, Larry Watson--a lot more I’m
forgetting right now. You’ll notice most are older or dead and that’s because I
don’t see a lot of competition for great writing these days. I see a lot of
work you might call “satisfactory” but little that is actual genius. It’s like
a sea of mediocre TV series’ episodes that look a lot alike out there. Name ten
books that actually affected you emotionally in the last couple of years. Name
five. Hell, name one or two! Name one person writing today who could write a
book to match one of Nelson Algren’s. There are a handful but a small handful.
Sorry about the bitterness. I nearly died a few
weeks ago and it kind of changed my outlook on life and writing. I’ve come
close to death before but prior to this was young enough I didn’t really
believe I could die. Now I know it’s always very close. And it made me want to
never again lie for the sake of being liked. I’d much rather be respected and
even hated for being forthright and honest than for making somebody feel good.
Write a truly great book like The Lock Artist,
Trout Fishing in America, The Stranger, A Feast of Snakes, The Rapist, No
Country for Old Men, or a short story as brilliant as “A Good Man Is Hard to
Find” or “The Fiend” and then you’ll be a writer and not just an author.
What’s next for you?
Well, since I’ve just committed professional
suicide with this interview, about all that’s left is to get my affairs in
order, then lay down in the casket and cross my hands and await the
pallbearers.
In the meantime, I’ll be finalizing my memoir, Adrenaline
Junkie, which comes out this fall from Down&Out Books. Maybe it’ll win
one of those awards some of my other books should have won. Probably not… Finishing
up a novel based on a short story I wrote when I was 12 and that my agent urged
me to write, saying it “haunted her” and that if I wrote it well, could be as
good as No Country for Old Men.
At any rate, thank you for this opportunity,
Will. Hope the haters won’t include you—you just were the gracious host who
asked the questions and didn’t realize he was talking to the angry old bastard
threatening the kids on his lawn with his .12 gauge…
And, I don’t really hate many of my fellow
writers. I just don’t want to have drinks with some of you… and I’m sure the
feeling’s mutual. That’s what we call a “big hairy-ass deal”… not… Too many “nice”
guys (to one’s face) out there who I wouldn’t turn my back on for a nanosecond.
I love the real men and women of literature. I detest the phonies that work the
room and can’t do the real work of writing. As we say in Texas, too many
writers today are “all hat and no cattle.”
Blue skies,
Les
I prefer gray, but…wow. Thanks for one helluva
ride.
@HookedOnNoir
FB – Les
Edgerton, Author
BIO: Les Edgerton is an ex-con, matriculating at Pendleton Reformatory in
the sixties for burglary (plea-bargained down from multiple counts of burglary,
armed robbery, strong-armed robbery and possession with intent). He was an
outlaw for many years and was involved in shootouts, knifings, robberies,
high-speed car chases, dealt and used drugs, was a pimp, worked for an escort service,
starred in porn movies, was a gambler, served four years in the Navy, and had
other misadventures. He’s since taken a vow of poverty (became a writer) with
21 books in print. His memoir, Adrenaline Junkie is currently being
edited prior to being published by Down&Out Books in November, 2018. Work
of his has been nominated for or won: the Pushcart Prize, O. Henry Award, Edgar
Allan Poe Award (short story category), Derringer Award, PEN/Faulkner Award,
Jesse Jones Book Award, Spinetingler Magazine Award for Best Novel (Legends
category), awarded two literary grants from the NEA, and the Violet Crown Book
Award, among others. Screenplays of his have placed as a semifinalist in the
Nicholl’s and as a finalist in the Best of Austin and Writer’s Guild’s competitions.
He holds a B.A. from I.U. and the MFA in Writing from Vermont College.
He was the writer-in-residence for three years at the University of Toledo, for
one year at Trine University, and taught writing classes for UCLA, St. Francis
University, Phoenix College, Writer’s Digest, Vermont College, the New York
Writer’s Workshop and other places. He currently teaches a private
novel-writing class online. He lives in Ft. Wayne, Indiana, where he immigrated
to some years ago from the U.S. and is currently learning the language and
customs there. He writes because he hates... a lot... and hard. Injustice and
bullying and mendacity are what he hates the most. He can be found at www.lesedgertononwriting.blogspot.com/
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