Uber-literary agent, Andrea Hurst posted an interview I took part in with Katie Flanagan on Andrea's site awhile back and I thought I'd post it here for those who didn't see it at the time and might have some interest in reading it. Without further ado...
AUTHORNOMICS Interview with Les
Edgerton
By: Andrea Hurst
March 26th, 2012 Posted in AUTHORNOMICS Interview
Series, Blog
With a publishing industry that is ever in flux, it can be
hard for an aspiring author to figure out what information is relevant and what
she needs to do to be successful. Recognizing this, literary agent Andrea Hurst
and writer and blogger Katie Flanagan present a series of weekly interviews
with publishing industry specialists. The AUTHORNOMICS Series features literary
agents, editors, authors, marketing experts and more talking about their
opinions on the publishing industry, writing, and what a writer needs to know.
Interview with Author Les Edgerton
Les
Edgerton is an ex-con, matriculating at Pendleton Reformatory for a couple of
years in the sixties for burglary (plea-bargained down from multiple counts of
burglary, armed robbery, strong-armed robbery and possession with intent). He’s
since taken a vow of poverty (became a writer) with 14 books in print. 2011 was
a good year for him as he published two novels with StoneGate Ink—Just Like
That and The Perfect Crime, along with noir novel The Bitch
from Bare Knuckles Press, as well as a new short story collection, Gumbo
Ya-Ya, from Snubnose Press. He just sold his existential novella, The
Rapist to New Pulp Press, which will be released in 2013. He is also
editor-at-large for Noir Nation International Crime Magazine.
Work of his has been nominated for or won: the Pushcart Prize, O. Henry Award,
Edgar Allan Poe Award (short story category), PEN/Faulkner Award, Texas
Institute of Letters Jesse Jones Book Award, the Violet Crown Book Award, and
others. He holds the MFA in Writing degree from Vermont College and a
Certificate in Barbering from Pendleton Reformatory. He writes because he
hates… a lot… and hard. Injustice and bullying are what he hates the most.
1. As a prolific author with
14 books in print so far, can you elaborate on how the publishing process has
changed since your first book?
It’s changed tremendously in some ways and barely at all in
others. I’m old-school, so I don’t count self-publishing as publishing. A horse
by any other name is still a horse. In my opinion, it’s just another name for
vanity publishing, which is not publishing but… printing (abeit in electronic
form). I’m not including in that assessment legitimate publishers who publish
ebooks, but I am including those who simply publish the work themselves. I have
friends who’ve chosen to self-publish and while they’re still my friends, I’m
not going to purchase their books any more than I would the person who has
stacks of their vanity or subsidy-published books in their garage. Just want to
define the terms. And, there are degrees and shadings within even the
self-published category. For instance, I’m getting ready to self-publish a
book… but it’s a book that has been published and done well. It just never came
out in ebook form, so my agent got the ebook rights from the publisher and
we’re going to put it out. That, to me, isn’t the kind of self-published
“vanity” book I’m referring to.
Definitions provided, to answer your question, let me
address what’s changed first. The biggest changes have come about because of
the advent of ebooks.
What’s changed is that if there was any doubt that mid-list
authors have disappeared, now there’s no doubt. At one time, legacy publishers
would publish a writer’s books knowing that they probably wouldn’t make any
money on that particular book, but they saw something in the writer that made
them think that eventually an audience would build for that author and down the
road, they’d all make money on his or her novels. As Roberto Durante said, in
another context: “No mas.”
The Big Six, in particular, are almost exclusively
interested in brand names. Proven winners who have a sizeable audience already
in place. Here’s a prime example. A few months ago, I was told in confidence by
someone who is in the “know,” that a top editor for a major publisher, who has
his own imprint, was told by his boss (yes, even top editors have bosses), that
if he signed any novel that didn’t earn at least $30,000 he’d be fired. Not
chastised, not given a talking to, or a slap on the wrist, but… fired.
Think this guy is going to want to sign the brilliant novel by the unknown
author or do you supposed he might opt instead for the same-as-the-last book by
Mr. Brand Name? Fugedaboutit. That’s one change.
The second change I’ve observed is that so-called “literary
novels” are just about over. Remember: I’m just the messenger. Don’t kill the
messenger! Here’s how I know this. For almost thirty years, my wife and I and
our son until he moved out of the house, visited a local bookstore every single
week. Never missed a week. Our favorite was Borders and our second favorite was
one of the two B&N outlets. One Saturday, we walked into Borders and stood
in shock at the change. The biggest single area the week before was the space
devoted to what was labeled “Mainstream fiction.” Mainstream encompasses
literary fiction in bookstore terminology. They’d reduced that space fully by
three-fourths. The area that used to house literary fiction and other fiction
that didn’t fit a particular genre was reassigned. To two areas. Genre fiction
was one. The other was greeting cards, wrapping paper, novelty items. Cute
little stuffed animals. I talked to the manager and she said she hated to do it,
but all the Borders stores were under corporate mandate to do the same.
Literary and mainstream fiction just weren’t selling. They couldn’t justify the
space devoted to it, so they reassigned it to genre fiction which was selling
and significantly. It’s a cold, hard fact, but the marketplace is what
determines what’s selling to publishers. Literary novels today are infinitely
tougher to sell than ever before and that market is shrinking monthly. If you
want to know what the literary tastes of a nation are, simply gaze about at a
national chain’s brick and mortar outlet and see what’s on the shelves. The
category area that has the most shelf space is the area that’s selling.
Does this mean so-called “literary” novels are impossible to
get published? No; it just means it’s much harder. They’ll continue to get
published because legacy publishers in this instance are the same as major film
studios. Major film studios will put out 85 movies that appeal to the biggest
audience demographic—teenaged boys—and the remaining 15 movies will be devoted
to a mix of other kinds of films. Among those will be a couple of “artsy”
movies. The ones that will be nominated for Golden Globes and Oscars. Most of
which they know they’ll lose money on. Then why make em? Because, studios want
to be thought of as intellectual, “arty” enterprises. Kind of an ego thing.
They know most of what they produce is mindless schlock, but if they get an
Oscar winner or even a nominee, they feel justified that they produce “art.”
And, for the one movie that does get nominated or win, they’ll actually make
money on it because of the publicity. It’s mostly a way for studio execs to
feel good about themselves and be able to delude themselves into thinking that
they’re actually engaged in quality work. Makes ‘em walk tall when they walk
into Spagos.
Well, publishers do the same thing. For all the vampire
novels selling in the bazillions, all the formulaic cartoonish novels about
bigger-than-life vigilante superheroes, that maintain a healthy bottom line, they’ll
all put out a few literary books that are published mostly because they’ll be
up for the National Book Award, the Pulitzer, even the Nobel. For the same
motivation as the film studios. So they can feel like they’re “literary” and
providing “good literature.” Makes ‘em feel proud when they walk into the
Russian Tea Room or Elaine’s or wherever they gather these days.
Am I cynical? You bet.
What are the things that have remained the same? Well, the
legacy publishers still employ the best gatekeepers in the business. If you get
published by a legacy publisher, you’ve achieved something. You’re truly
validated by people who actually know something about quality in writing. If
you self-publish, your validation is going to come from your relatives, friends,
and how effective you are at marketing, for the most part. Sales seem to be the
biggest factor in ebook publishing and sales are a poor barometer of quality.
For example, there is an author who was, at best, a mid-list author when he was
being published by legacy publishers—his work is truly mediocre, at best—who
has become a huge marketing success since he opted for self-publishing. He’s
making lots of money—and that’s fine—but his work is still godawful. If sales
are your measure of success, he’s a good model to emulate. If being regarded as
a good writer is your measure, he’s probably not the guy whose bust you want
gracing your mantel. There’s a reason he went to self-publishing and it has to
do with writing ability. His sales ability is off the charts. His writing
ability is… what’s the word?… oh, yeah… pure do-do.
There are other changes and other things that remain the
same, but those are some of the biggest.
2. You write novels, short fiction, nonfiction, and
screenplays. What is your favorite genre to work in and why?
Novels, by far. They require the most creativity and the
most ability. Short fiction would be second. Nonfiction for the money.
Screenplays are last. The reason is, screenplays aren’t about writing. No one
picks up a screenplay to go sit in the hammock for a lazy-crazy afternoon of
losing themselves in a fictional world. And, screenplays are ridiculously easy
to write. I wrote my first screenplay literally in two days. Took seven hours
the first day, put it aside for two weeks, and then finished it in a nine-hour
day when I picked it back up. Now, it’s easy to write a bad screenplay in two
days, so that doesn’t mean much. However, this particular screenplay placed as
a semifinalist in the Nicholl’s competition and Greg Beals, the director of the
foundation told me it would have won if I’d sent it in the year before, but the
previous year’s winner was remarkably close to mine and he said they never
picked two screenplays in a row that were this much alike. But, it placed in
the top 100 out of 4,500 entries. So, I take that as validation that it was a
good screenplay. Written in two days. Don’t think I could write a novel like
that. And, I’d just learned formatting the week before and had read my first
screenplay ever that same week. As Gore Vidal said about Jack Kerouac: “That’s
not writing; that’s typing.” I don’t write them anymore because I’m too old.
After the age of 35, it’s virtually impossible to sell a screenplay to
Hollywood. Notice I didn’t say “impossible.” I said “virtually” impossible.
And, it is. Hollywood is clearly an ageist society in every segment of the
business except for producing.
3. How did you go about
mastering the craft of writing?
That’s easy! By reading. That’s the only way to learn how to
write. There are no “secrets” in learning how to write. The “secrets” are right
out in the open. They’re on the page of the book you have open before you. All
you have to do is see how the author accomplished what they did and you’re
learning to write. I regularly get writers in my classes who haven’t read a
book in months or even years and I know there’s no way they’ll ever be a
writer. But, I’ll also encounter a student who has read voraciously from the
age of five or six and never stopped, and I know that person has a chance at
becoming a writer.
4. How important do you
think it is for fiction writers to obtain an MFA?
Again, an easy question. I think it’s totally unimportant.
In fact, I think most programs destroy more writers than help them. I kind of
agree with Flannery O’Connor who, when asked if writing programs discouraged
writers, said: “Not enough of them.” And I have one. I have two degrees—(well,
three—I also have a B.A.)—an MFA and a Certificate in Barbering from Pendleton
Reformatory. Of the two, I value my barbering certificate much, much more. I’ve
made far more money, enjoyed far more success with that one.
First, take a look at who the teachers and professors are in
most programs. What have they done and what have they sold? If Stephen King
ever showed up in an MFA program it would only be because he was slumming and
bored and wanted a change. Most of the folks (not all!) teaching in many such
programs are writing the kind of books Kurt Vonnegut was referring to when he
said, “Literature is in danger of disappearing up its own asshole.”
And, most MFA programs are dedicated to teaching “literary”
fiction. I don’t know about you, but do I want to spend thousands of dollars
and use up a couple years of my life to learn to write something that’s
basically dying? I don’t know what your I.Q. is but mine’s over 160 and I try
to put it to use, especially for questions like this.
Years ago, an Ivy League college performed a study in which
they looked at a random group of a hundred professional writers. They identified
them as “professional” by the only legitimate definition of the term—writers
who earned their entire income from writing. They discovered that almost
exactly half of these writers had a high school diploma or less… and the other
half had a college bachelor’s degree or higher. There’s really no correlation
between writing education and writing success. What an MFA degree does do is
give the student access to decision-makers. Lots of publishers and editors
visit these campuses and lots of editor’s eyes light up when they see “MFA” in
the writer’s query letter. However, most of these editors are the ones who are
still looking for literary novels and believe there’s a decent market for such.
A shrinking number…
These programs used to have more value even a few years ago
than they do today. These days, they’re seen by many universities and colleges
as “cash cows” and they’re springing up everywhere. And, like anything that
gets bigger like this, the quality goes down, commensurately. At one time,
there were perhaps five-six pretty good programs. Now there are hundreds. If
anyone thinks they’re as good and as beneficial for writers as they used to be,
well I’d like their phone number because I have this terrific bridge in
Brooklyn I’m trying to move…
That said, there is one program I think is a great one and
one I wish had been around when I got mine. Seton Hill focuses on genre writing
(about time somebody did!), and everything I hear about it is positive. They
appear to be a program that’s aware that it’s now 2012.
5. As a creative writing
teacher, what are some of the most common mistakes that you see beginning
writers making in both fiction and nonfiction?
Not following the two elements that are always present in
good writing. Be interesting and be clear. Of the two, being interesting is the
most important. After that, there are structural problems that are very common.
Most writers have never been taught story structure, or if they have, often
it’s an archaic structure. Most English classes, most college writing classes,
many MFA programs are focused on “parts” or writing. All these “exercises” on
description, or characterization or dialog or whatever. Yuch! Listen, one
doesn’t get to Carnegie Hall by practicing the scales. They get there by
understanding what a symphony is and how to write a complete symphony. I hate
it when writers refer to what they’re writing as the “piece” they’re working
on. What in the hell is a “piece” of writing? Dude! Dudette! Write something that’s
complete and entire. A short story. A novel. Talk about your novel, not the
“piece” you’re working on.
The two biggest mistakes beginning writers make are not
using their own, particular, unique voice, and not beginning the story of
nonfiction article or book in the right place. After that, the next biggest
problem is not striving for and achieving what Flannery O’Connor said about the
best of novels (badly paraphrased) that they be: “All of a piece; all of a
unified effect.” So many novels end up episodic with no through-line. In other
words, a mish-mash of scenes and quirky characters. That’s a novel of which the
author can say, truthfully, that it’s “only available in my room.”
6. One of your well-known
writing books is Hooked: Write Fiction that Grabs the Reader at Page One and
Never Lets Them Go. What are the important elements in hooking a reader
early?
To begin where the story begins. It’s that simple. A
contemporary story is about one thing and one thing only. Trouble. That means
the story should begin—when the trouble begins. Not the week before, not
two years before, not even two minutes before. When the trouble begins.
Period. And, that seems to be a difficult concept for many to master. Something
has to create and/or reveal that trouble to the protagonist. That event is the
inciting incident. And, that’s where stories today need to begin.
There was a time in our culture when novels could begin more
leisurely. This was a time before television and movies and CNN and iPods and
all the other entertainment venues were upon us. Today’s reader doesn’t have
the attention span nor the interest in picking up novels with leisurely
openings. That doesn’t mean stories should begin with gunfights, stabbings,
bombs blowing up, kidnappings, murders, or any of that melodramatic stuff. It
means they have to open with conflict—the major conflict that forms the core of
the story. It can be a quiet conflict, but what it can’t be is a lengthy
account of the protagonist’s bucolic life for the ten years before the trouble
began. It has to begin with the trouble. Period.
When movies began, they had no structural models, so they
used novels as their models. Today, it’s been reversed. Novels have to imitate
film structure. Years ago, screenwriting how-to books insisted the first ten
minutes of a screenplay be “devoted to the setup.” No mas, again quoting
Roberto Duran. Those days are, in the words of my son, “so five minutes ago.”
Films today begin… when the trouble begins. As should novels.
We read a novel for one reason. To see if and how the
protagonist is going to resolve the story problem. If there’s no problem on the
page, for that novel the reader is going to become… a nonreader. Count on it.
Very few (and they don’t count) readers pick up a book just to encounter in the
beginning a nifty shooting in an alley. If they don’t know the characters or
the protagonist’s story problem, why would they care? There are a million
places to see someone get shot. Just click on the nightly news. There has to be
a reason to turn to Page 2. That reason is we see a character with a compelling
problem—one we can relate to—on Page 1.
7. Beginnings are so
important, especially in today’s marketplace. How does a writer determine if
they have started their novel in the right place? Do you have an opinion on
using prologues?
If they’ve begun with the introduction of the event that
created and/or revealed the problem that’s going to occupy the protagonist for
the following 349 pages, they’ve begun in the right place. If they’ve begun
anywhere else—they haven’t.
Also, that needs to be written in a scene. Everything truly
important in a novel needs to be delivered via a scene. Not through the
character’s ruminations or thoughts or that kind of thing. A scene. When I pick
up a manuscript and it’s the character thinking on the page, my Nexium starts
to malfunction and I can feel the bile beginning to rise and voila! I’m
throwing up in my mouth.
The reason so many writers fail, is that they don’t write
scenes. They write a character’s thoughts and ruminations. They deliver
descriptions of emotions based on events the reader hasn’t been witness to, via
a scene. Doesn’t work. I see this in high school students beginning to write
poetry. They deliver all these descriptions of emotions based on something the
reader hasn’t been privy to and think that that’s poetry. It isn’t. The only
way the reader is impacted emotionally is by living through the event right
along with the character and at the same time. Period.
Prologues? I think the vast majority… what’s the word?… oh,
yeah… suck. Most aren’t needed. Now, for those who practice selective reading,
I didn’t say “all.” I said “most.” Occasionally, one might work—although I
can’t think of any offhand. Most, I suspect, come from a writer who’s been admonished
not to begin with setup or backstory and just has to provide that crap… so they
create a prologue. I use an example of one in a brilliant book. Larry Watson’s Montana
1948. He uses one in his terrific novel and it won major awards and is one
of my favorite books. But, it wasn’t needed. Not at all.
I feel the same about epilogues. Mostly, I think they come
from writers who don’t know how to tie up the loose ends with the plot, so they
stick ‘em on to accomplish that. I think most would be better served in
learning how to plot better…
8. How important do you think it is for authors
to maintain a strong social media presence? What tips do you have for
keeping a successful writing blog?
Mostly depends on who you are. If you’re Joyce Carol Oates,
it’s probably not important in the least. If you’re Les Edgerton, it might be…
I’m probably the wrong person to ask what it takes for
keeping a successful writing blog. I have one and I don’t know if I’d call it
successful or not! I mean, I only have 250+ followers. I’ve had more people
watch me pull off a crime… If numbers aren’t important, then I feel it’s
successful. I’ve made wonderful contacts through it and many that have helped
me not only sell my books but even helped me get them published. As to what
makes it successful, I think it’s to base it on the same elements I feel
important in a good novel. Be interesting and be clear. I don’t know if it’s
always clear, but I do try hard to make it interesting. After all, there are
about sixteen bazillion blogs out there and if yours ain’t interesting, then
who’s going to want to read it? I figure it it’s interesting to me, then it
might be interesting to others. Maybe not… I have weird tastes… I also have a
mean, contrarian side to me. I don’t believe in telling people necessarily what
they want to hear. There are enough people out there in writing telling folks
they’re great and that writing’s easy and all that stuff. There are just lots
of folks who aren’t great and their writing sucks and somebody maybe ought to tell
them that. How else do we get better if we don’t know we’re bad?
9. On your blog, you have
posted the first chapter of your new writing book, A Fiction Writer’s
Workshop at the Bijou. Do you think giving away the first chapter is
helpful for building sales?
Good question! And, the answer is—I don’t know. I hope so.
If the readers see it as valuable information—and early responses say it
is—then I think it’ll prove helpful. Plus, although I plan on self-publishing
it, chances are some editor or other gatekeeper will come across it and think:
“Hey, I can sell that puppy.” And then ring me up on the telly. Who knows?
After all, those folks whose first meeting with Ed McMahon was on their front
porches were real people getting those giant checks…
10. Many authors are
choosing to self-publish now. Do you see that as a viable option? What are the
pros and cons?
Only under very special circumstances would I self-publish.
And, I am for two books. One isn’t really self-publishing. We’ve obtained the
rights from Writer’s Digest for a very successful book they published of mine—Finding
Your Voice—and I’m publishing an ebook version of it since they opted not
to. I’m pretty sure there’s a sizeable audience. It earned out its advance of
$8,000 within six weeks of its release way back when and every year has paid me
excellent royalties. I’m pretty sure there’s an audience for that book,
particularly since it hasn’t appeared in ebook format.
The second instance is the Bijou book you referred to above.
If I was a beginning writer with no street cred, there’s no way I’d
self-publish it. But, I’ve got a pretty decent track record with sales of my
other two writer’s how-tos, so I’m fairly confident that will translate into
decent sales. Hooked just doesn’t let up in sales, year after year, so
that tells me I have an audience. Plus, I’ve delivered and continue to deliver,
a four-hour workshop on the film I use as the basis of the book—Thelma &
Louise—to writing groups and workshops and draw absolutely rave reviews for
the presentation, so I know there’s a significant audience for it and that it
fills what I see as a hole in the writing how-to canon. Hope so, anyway!
11. Do you have any
upcoming workshops, classes or author services to share with us?
I’ve been invited to appear and do a reading of my work at
Noir at the Bar in St. Louis at Subterranean Books on April 28 that I’m pretty
jazzed about. Great, famous venue! One of my publishers, Cort McMeel of Bare
Knuckles Press got me the gig via the host, Jed Ayres, to help promote my
novel, The Bitch. I’m really excited as I’m told folks like Scott
Phillips and Nick Arvin will also be there to read and I’m a huge Scott
Phillips fan! Details should show up at http://spaceythompson.blogspot.com/
or at http://store.subbooks.com/
I co-teach a class with author Jenny Milchman via Skype for
the New York Writer’s Workshop and we’ll be taking applications for the next class
shortly. It’s titled: Beginnings: The Start of Your Novel, Your Career, &
Your Writing Life.
You can check out the class at http://newyorkwritersworkshop.com/online-course-beginnings-the-start-of-your-novel-your-career-your-writing-life
I also teach a private workshop online on novel writing. The
next class will begin in approximately two months. Anyone interested can email me
at butchedgerton@comcast.net.
Kristen Lamb has asked I join her world-wide network of
writing teachers to provide video lessons for writers. Plans are still being
formulated, but anyone who might be interested, I’d suggest following her blog
at http://warriorwriters.wordpress.com/
as she’ll post information once it’s all set up.
And, please visit me at my own blog at www.lesedgertononwriting.blogspot.com/
The winner of Susan Wingate’s DROWNING is Carol
Anita Ryan! Thanks for reading our blog!
Andrea Hurst has
over 25 years experience as a published author, developmental editor for
publishers, and skilled literary agent. She works with both major and
regional publishing houses, and her client list includes emerging new voices
and New York Times best-selling authors. Andrea represents high profile Adult
Nonfiction and well crafted fiction. Her clients and their books have appeared
on the Oprah Show, Ellen DeGeneres Show, Good Morning America, National
Geographic network and in the New York Times.
Katie Flanagan is
a fiction major at Northwestern University. She is currently an editor with
Booktrope Publishing and Pink Fish Press. In the past, she has interned with
Andrea Hurst Literary Management and the Northwest Institute of Literary Arts.
Her favorite genre is women’s fiction, but she reads any fiction put in front
of her. Check out her blog about the writing life at katieflanagan.wordpress.com and
follow her on Twitter at @K_Flanagan.
You
can see the interview as it appeared, along with the comments on Andrea Hurst’s
site at http://www.andreahurst.com/blog/authornomics-interview-with-les-edgerton/
Blue
skies,
Les
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